We interrupt our Tucson blog .... Part II

What happened to the post by "the truth" dated August 18, 2009?

Whats up with the missing CONTENT of the comments?

If all of you knew the real truth, you would applaud Gary and be dismayed beyond belief. There are several Federal trials going on right now that you should follow involving your favorite andesine/ruby seller. Eventually, the actual story will be revealed through depositions and discovery, so stand by. The truth is out there.

If you are looking for information on the Andesine Labradorite that
JTV, other TV Shoppings and gemstones that are sold on ebay go to
gembusters.com and click on forums. Look under Andesine Controversy
and hopefully this will answer all of your questions.

My head hurts from all of this information. Is there really any in
Tibet? It was the 1st official gem stone of any Olympics. Was this
mined in the States, sent to Tibet and or the Congo, treated and
then sent as if it was mined there? I have rec'd certs with some of
my stones stating origin. Who all was fooled?

So if the Mexican yellow labradorite JTV is selling has the same
chemical composition as Red Andesine they are selling, some one
nuked it to make Red Andesine, right? None of the yellow
labradorite came out of the ground red. How does JTV come across
Red Andesine that matches the yellow? If you look at the reports on
yourgemologist.com it shows that they match. How is that possible?
Especially whey they claim that Jack, from JTV, found it in
Mongolia...Something is not adding up. Does anyone out there know
if it is possible for Mongolian labradorite to match Mexican
labradorite? Maybe Robert James, from International School of
Gemology needs to test the Mongolian material. I would like to see
if the story even jives. the plot thickens....

I am wondering about the time line when Robert James of
International School of Gemology, started to create a buzz about
the possibilities of treatment other than heating and the time of
JTV disclosing their find? The news is out about the facts of
diffusion treatments. You can find more information on
yourgemologist.com....Also, Robert James recd a lot of backlash
about the findings of the treatments. He was vindicated. As well,
he found out that the Andesine stones JTV sold matched the yellow
labradorite coming out of Mexico. What do you know...JTV claims
that they were the ones that found the material in Mexico
another...oops... Does anyone remember that? They were so proud of
the fact that they had "guys in the field" looking for Fire Opal
whey they discovered the mines. Pretty suspicious that they
discovered the Mexican yellow labradorite and also it has been
found that the lab reports show both yellow labradorite and "Red
Andesine" are a match chemically with a ramen spectroscope. I also
thought JTV had the andesine cut in their facilities. How did they
not know...come on they have some of the best in the field working
for them...they knew...no mater what spin they put on the
story...they are in the business of making money..bottom line..they
were caught..what next?

If you presently own JTV "Andesine" please go to www.gembusters.com
for more information, or you can email me directly at
MLGAUTO@hotmail.com.

Gary, I don't know if you have seen it yet, but you need to check
out the ISG newsletter that just came out today. Big news from
Robert James about Andesine Labradorite. The newsletter was mailed
to subscribers, and is not on the ISG website. If you don't get
this, you can go to the JTV blog dated 4/16/08 and it is posted
there. Happy reading!

Gary, with all due respect re;“diabolical” I use that
term in reference to UNDISCLOSED hi-tech treatments. Thank you,
kindly for the wealth of information you impart on us.

Yes, as far as I know, whatever the method of enhancement, in
general, if a pile of Andesine is enhanced by the same method, the
final result should be pretty much based upon the trace elements
already within the stone. Gentle heat vs. high heat could make a
difference, but usually, the reason for using more heat is because
the stone didn’t change, or didn’t change enough. Some
gemstones, in particular sapphires, can be heated many times, by
many different treatment labs, before the final results are
acceptable to the owner of the gems. … And I wouldn’t
use the word “diabolical” to describe an enhancement.
Some are certainly more hi-tech than others, but if everything is
disclosed properly, we do not have a problem with that. The
problems come when someone knows that the stones have been enhanced
but claim otherwise, as was the case of the beryllium treated
sapphire. Now that we know about the enhancement, these gems sell
just as well as the unenhanced sapphires, but for much much much
less money, of course. When it comes to color value, Mother
Nature’s color still rule! … As for your comparison of
emerald and bixbite, here is a case where the trace element
coloring each gem is different… chromium for emerald, and
manganese for bixbite. So, same mineral, beryl, but different
foreign element, giving different colors, and therefore different
varietal names. Maybe that’s why some andesine turns green
and others red. We don’t know the answer to that one yet. As
for pushing the industry for better business practices, JCK along
with many jewelry industry organizations are doing just that. And
it’s working. Take a look through some of our JCK stories
highlighting Jewelers of America, Fair Trade Gems, the Council for
Responsible Jewellery Practices, and the Jewelers Vigilance
Committee, just to name a few. I hope you will be pleasantly
surprised at how much is already being done.

Thank you Gary, Just so I understand this correctly...even if these
stones have been treated with a high tech treatment, they could be
all be different colors due to the trace elements found in each
piece of rough? So the difference in color has nothing to due with
whether the stone is gently heated, or some more diabolical
treatment? By the way emerald, ruby was a great comp. another would
be emerald, bixbit, and the best comp. of all Oregon sunstone,
which is available in many of the same colors. I hope they're (gem
Labs) working feverishly on the I.D. of this stone. There are
rumors flying all over the place from very reputable individuals in
the field. Some claim to have knowledge of this treatment, but dare
not tell until the labs come back. Thank you again, for your time
Gary. And please if you have any pull with the gemstone industry,
push them to police themselves better then they do now, and
implement stricter guidelines for themselves, before a Federal
agency needs to step in to due so. Thank you

Real quickly regarding color and enhancement... great example is
tanzanite - almost all are heated and yet there are dozens of
different hues (purples to blues and everything in between), in
different saturations (vivid to dull) and tones (dark to light). No
rhyme or reason - that's Mother Nature. Why some andesine would be
colored green instead of red is all up to the trace elements that
may be present in the host stone - and mother nature. An
interesting example might be looking at the trace element chromium
- a foreign element found in emerald and ruby - which creates the
color, green in emerald, and red in ruby... same trace element,
different color for different gem species. We really do not yet
know what's happening with andesine. ... As for determination of
heat treatment... once the labs have looked at both the natural and
enhanced materials, they can usually find some unique
identification feature that will allow them to make the call. This
identification test may end up being something hi-tech such as
Infrared Spectroscopy, or x-ray topography. Or it might be
something as simple as fluorescence to Ultraviolet Light. At this
point, we're all waiting for the labs to figure it out...

P.S. I also believe the entire gemstone industry as a whole, has
serious credibility issues ahead of it.

Hi Gary, The integrity of all the red and green feldspar, is in
question (other than the Oregon material-proven) If there are other
sources for this material...let's say the Congo, that is natural,
how are we to know if the material we own has been treated or not.
I just read a post about the rumor you referenced: heating for
30days tumbling, and cu, diffusion from another source. How will we
know who has what? If any other treatment is proven, it will bring
into question, every red or green feldspar, sold prior to the
information re; treatment being released and in my opinion cause
the value to plummet, (only my opinion) whether they are treated or
not. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. The red and green
feldspar aka andesine-Labradorite I own are all different shades of
red and green...until recently, when I purchased three small
stones, from JTV, they were exactly the same color, I was surprised
by this. I purchased the three hoping to make a match out of two of
them...but they were all a perfect match, which I hadn't seen
before on any of my other stones. Thank you in advance for your
valuable opinion on this matter.

Gary I don't know what happened to my first post that I actually
sent before the last one, thanking you for your response to my
questions.

Gary I am sorry, I forgot to ask one question regarding your
response. You said, “there’s too much material of all
the same color for it to be simply heated.” What would you
say about the green Andesine that seems to be all differen't shades
of green rather than just one?????? This is something that keeps
making me wonder how there could be the same things done to the
same base stone and yet all the shades in the end seem to be
differen't. I have over 70 of just the green, and very few are of
the exact same color. Thanks for your response, and any other
comments on this would be great.

Yvonne and Jennifer, You’ve pointed out some very important
issues. First, regarding laboratory reports: The labs do not
guarantee that a stone has or has not been heat treated/enhanced.
Seeing a lab report therefore would not solve the issue here, which
is to first be certain of how your gems have been mined and
processed prior to sale. This is the way you can be assured of the
gem’s integrity. So JTV was too quick and too excited to sell
andesine, just like many others in the jewelry industry. They did
so by relying on the lab to tell them whether any enhancement could
be detected. And none was detected. Now give JTV some credit for
not only for finding the mine, and finding that the gems were not
naturally red, but for also making the announcement to the world
regarding possible enhancement. No professional international gem
laboratory has uncovered this information. JTV has told us that the
gems are enhanced by heat. JTV has also mentioned that they are
supplying the gem labs with gem material to determine if anything
else has been used to enhance the gems. So yes, you could be
rightfully upset being told that the gems were unenhanced, but you
should also give JTV points for their findings, and their
cooperation with the gem labs. Now to the point of value and heat
treatment: Yes, 99% of all tanzanite is heated. So you’d
pretty much be without tanzanite, except in museums and royal
crowns, if not for the enhancement by heat. Blue topaz would be
pretty much the same way, as Mother Nature only makes blue topaz in
a very pale blue. All of the rest of the blue topaz you see has
been enhanced through irradiation. So again, here, enhancement is
the sole source for the commercial gemstone and therefore the value
cannot be compared to a “natural color” gem of the same
species – except for those rare collector museum quality
gems. Now with andesine, we are really not certain yet if there
would be any value/price difference. There is natural red sunstone
from Oregon. Sunstone is in the same labradorite feldspar group. Is
there an andesine mine in the Congo? Maybe Jewel Hunter Jack will
find out for us. Is that andesine natural color, or heated? Is
there any red andesine in the world that is natural color, or like
tanzanite, is it pretty much all heated? And is the material from
Mongolia only heated? These are all questions for which we are all
looking for answers. Cool heads prevail. While we search, and
research for answers, for those of you who have purchased andesine,
wear them in good health and enjoy them. When the answers come
available, look for them here on line or in JCK Magazine.

Thanks for all the information on the old terms. I agree about the
Aqua and Tourmalines (I personally have a large Aqua I would not
part with for the world). I think Yvonne has a point, I would also
like to see the lab reports from JTV's sources. I also think the
main point is that Yvonne & other JTV customers feel lied to
and cheated. But I would also point out to Yvonne & others that
many sellers/resellers are treating this as if it is no big deal
and that it will not and/or they will not let it affect the asking
prices for the stones. The comment I am hearing is that 'Well,
Tanzanite is heat treated and is equally rare and look what it
sells for!" so, perhaps if the value is truly not affected (hope
springs eternal) then this might encourage fuller disclosure of all
treatments/practices.

The fact is folks you are telling us that bought this stone from
JTV that we shouldn't be upset with them that this stone is color
treated. Tell me why we shouldn't be? You go even futhers to
explain that woods are stains and frabics are are dyed ect for
color but your missing the whole point. One if there are lab
reports JTV needs to show them to us and (Two) Be honest with
yourself one of thier BIGGEST selling ploys with this stone has
been (It's natural) Hello? What's not to get here. I'd love to know
who had the rights to the minds in the Congo? Now that would answer
a lot of questions wouldn't it?

Gary..yes I do think they're all precious,as long as their not
heated for 30 days, tumbled, and then diffusion treated with
copper!

"Precious" vs "Semi-Precious" - - - These are actually old terms
that we try not to use today ... but old habits die hard. The
"precious" gems are diamond, emerald, ruby, and sapphire. Every
other natural gem used in jewelry is considered "semi-precious."
But don't tell someone that their $5,000 aquamarine, or $45,000
Paraiba tourmaline is semi-precious. They're all beautiful and
"precious," don't you think?

Ps..Is Andesine a Precious gem or a semi-precious or just not
precious at all?

Hi Cathy, Thanks for the advice, I will post what ebay says. The
vendor wants the gem shipped to Thailand. It was the USPS guy at
the counter who stopped me. Oddly enough, Fedex does not list the
same restrictions but it is 3x the price to ship. As a rank
amateur, I agree w/ both Cathy & Gary, greater transparency is
essential to this industry. Too often, I am asked by friends 'How
are you sure you are not being sold cheap goods?' I tell them I
have a jeweler I trust and can do some verification at home. But
the general consensus is that I am taking a huge risk. My own
mother would rather negotiate the price of a new car than buy more
fine jewelry!

Right you are, Cathy. The end consumer is dependent on the retail
jeweler, who is dependent on the gemstone supplier. With greater
transparency from the mine to the counter, we will all benefit.
Fair Trade Gems, along with industry organizations such as Jewelers
of America, the International Colored Gemstones Association, the
Gemological Institute of America, and the American Gem Trade
Association, are the driving forces behind this movement for
greater knowledge of a gemstone’s integrity. While this
effort is not perfect, it is getting much better.

Jennifer, Sometimes the eBay vendors have a U.S. location to handle
returns. Please check with the vendor, if you still have a problem
try contacting eBay.

Thank you Gary, However we as lay people and not intricately
involved in the inside workings of the gemstone industry, felt
there was no mystery to this gemstone except for the mine location.
When this stone was being touted as untreated, who knew except for
the insiders, that the untreated rough was not supplied to the gem
labs along with the finished product? Until this is the case, I
feel that a gemstone shouldn't be sold as untreated, (to do
otherwise is making an assumption about treatment) only my humble
opinion. Thank you again.

Hi..I am a real amateur here but I have been caught up in this
Andesine/Labradorite mess. I am glad to finally read some
conclusive comments about the fact that we really don't know the
whole story and there could me more here to be disclosed. So, Thank
you.. Now my question...I am trying to send a stone back to
Thailand and the Ebayer it came from but I have run into the import
restrictions regarding Precious gemstones being sent back to
Thailand (per the USPS website). So is this stone considered
Precious? Also, has anyone else here returned a stone to Thailand
successfully? Thank you!

Anthony, the reason I mentioned the rumor of a possible diffusion
treatment was to serve as a heads-up to anyone interested in buying
andesine. It's a beautiful gemstone, but as Stuart pointed out,
there is so much material on the market and so little information
regarding enhancement, we really need to be cautious. Buyers need
to be requiring enhancement guarantees in writing from suppliers.
Suppliers need to do due diligence to be able to guarantee
enhancement disclosure. Cathy, the gem labs can only do so much.
They are not the policing agency for the industry. HPHT treated
diamonds sneaked through the labs before Lazare Kaplan announced
the process – and then helped the lab acquire before and
after treated gems for research. Hundreds of thousands of carats of
beryllium treated sapphire passed through the labs, identified as
only heated, before it was discovered that color was created by
diffusion. It took several labs doing very expensive and time
consuming research to uncover the truth – and all based on a
hunch by sharp gemologists telling themselves, “there’s
too much material of all the same color for it to be simply
heated.” While some suppliers hang their hat on the
laboratory report that says “no evidence of heat,” you
have to realize that all this really means is that the lab
doesn’t have any current evidence that the stone’s been
heated. It does not mean that the stone is absolutely positively
unheated. Once rumors and hunches present themselves, the
professional gem labs must do their research on unenhanced rough,
enhanced rough and then cut gems. Getting the rough material is the
first step in the process. Kudos to JTV if they have supplied the
labs with before and after treatment materials for research. We
will wait for the lab findings. Watch for the results to be
published in the gemological literature and in articles on JCK
Online and the magazine. As for JTV bashing, JTV got caught in the
typical frenzy of a new find, a new gem material to offer for sale.
In the rush to get it to market, they, like other suppliers, did
not first find out more about the product. However, JTV should get
some credit here as it is now the first supplier helping solve the
source and enhancement mysteries.

Wow JTV bashing is not right as far as I am concerened except for
the last two weeks. IMO JTV should have not let the buying frenzy
happen like it did. If they would have just came out and said hey
folks here it is and this is how we found out, I dont think we
would be seeing the backlash that is occuring. If you bought those
large Andesine/Labs 3 years ago and dont want them anymore, I would
be glad to buy them for the original purchase price. Think it was
around $20 a carat. I dont think I will get to many takers.

I agree Stuart, JTV should offer up their gemological certs. I
doubt any reputable gemological institute would state untreated,
especially on a so called new gemstone, unless they were absolutely
sure. I do believe JTV has known about this situation for quite
awhile. When JTV found the mine, why didn't they follow this stone
from mine to market to see exactly how it was treated (?) I would
have! My gut feeling …is there is more news re; treatments to
come. Not just gentle heat. Sure hope I’m wrong! Some eBay
sellers are stating coated on a few of the Andesine/Lab. does
anyone know what this is about? I don’t think stones are
coated only one or two at a time, my understanding is this type of
treatment is done in bulk. Thanks

Hey crazy anonymous person - third down. I'm NOT hateful to J-tv -
what is wrong with you? CLEARLY you didn't read the article on Fair
Trade Gems. I understand that they sent it to labs (although I
don't think it was conclusive that there were no treatments to the
stone) - maybe they should post the results from lab. I get that!
However, bottom line, when you sell gemstone, or any product for
that matter, it is your responsibility to ensure you know your
source of your product. I wonder why they never sent the gem hunter
3 years ago when they made a conscious decision to begin selling
the gem. By the way, they have NOT offered to refund money to
people for their purchcases outside of their 30 day return
policy...How long have you been working there?

Gary Roskin unprofessional...I don't think so. But let's consider
the question at hand. So, where do such treatment assertions come
from? Try past experience. Virtually every gem treatment disclosure
of the past two decades has been preceded by denials or the
disclosure of a treatment type deemed more acceptable than the one
actually used to create/alter the gem. Just a few examples;
Beryllium sapphire (claim: heat), Red sapphire (claim: different
chemistry than ruby, new source, turned out to be diffusion
treated. Be2 is now disclosed as Be as if Be has replaced
“heated” as the accepted or “traditional”
treatment for corundum.) It goes on and on. At the moment, I can't
think of a treatment that was preceded in the market by a warning
that it was coming. In that regard, Cathy is correct. The reason it
is an issue today is because the gem trade has spent decades
creating an illusion of rarity built on the premise that rough
comes from the ground and then is merely faceted to release an
already present inner beauty. But that rarely has any relationship
to reality…and thus problems exist today that need not to.
For example, as I am sure Gary observed at the show, ruby was dead.
This is not what we had expected. We anticipated that ruby demand
would be quite strong as people moved to acquire pre-embargo
inventory. That does not seem to have happened. Instead, we found a
market drowning in lead-glass filled ruby selling as low as a $1.50
p/c. Now, this combined with extremely high prices at the better
end of the market has made ruby a bit of a joke. Few buyers seemed
to know what to make of the market, and in my opinion, opted out of
it all together. I can’t speak for Gary, but I suspect that
in time the trade will know more about why andesine was able to
increase its population so quickly, while also (in my observation)
gain a uniformity of appearance.

The fact that clothing is dyed, etc. is common knowledge! It has
nothing to do with selling as gemstone as UNTREATED, and failing to
disclose the knowledge that is in fact treated(when known) in a
timely manner.

Gary, you still have not answered my question. Why would you be so
reckless to present this rumor this way during all of this? In my
opinion all this does for you is make you look unprofessional. With
nothing to back it up atleast that you are willing to speak of and
still putting a statement out there like that. THE TIP OF THE
ICEBERG (C'MON). I understand you wanting to present the news but,
to do it and not show any reason why you would report this. Please
help me understand the purpose of this at this time. Thanks. Please
no bashing of me, I am really confused why this comment of copper
treating with no facts is proper now.

We in the industry tend to get our knickers in a bunch without
actually researching what the consumer thinks. Consumers recognize
that wood is treated (i.e. stained, oiled, sealed, etc.) as it
becomes furniture or flooring, fabric fibers are treated (i.e. dyed
or bleached) before it becomes clothing, etc. But we talk about
disclosure of treatment as if it's this big bad secret we're being
forced to reveal--whereas if we'd just address it matter of factly
as part of the process of getting the gem from the ground to the
finger, the customer would most likely just say, "Oh, ok, that's
how it's done," and leave it at that. It's time to stop making an
issue out of a part of the sale process that really shouldn't be an
issue.

Actually, hateful anonymous poster at the top, they ARE offering to
refund everyone's money. I think this is an unfortunate event
because while this company isn't known for their stellar honest
selling practices, in this case they seem to be innocent. The
company has said many times that "no gem lab was able to detect
treatment." They sent many stones out to be treated, and they were
returned with no treatment detected. No one in this witch hunt
seems to be willing to acknowledge that very important fact.

Could you be more specific on rumors that are floating around? It
seems to me to be a bit reckless to go out and make a statement
like this without being more specific, or having more information
to back up this scare that you just put into a bunch of us. Thanks
for any information you can add to help ease our minds in the time
being one way or another.

Gary, thank you so much for your investigation into the truth - so
many people were sold these goods - and purchased as untreated
NATURAL gems. The co. has NOT offered to refund folks money - this
give gem stone collecting a VERY VERY bad name = so sad to take
people's hard earned money...very sad.