I talked to one of the people from the laboratory in Japan. This person told me that it was copper diffusion. There was no confusion about what copper diffusion meant with him. I told him I was hoping they were simply heating shillers which naturally contain copper rather than introducing foreign copper. It was very clear he was talking about introducing foreign copper. He even described the process that he observed in China, how they put the copper in it. Basically, to get diffusion all the way into the stone, they have to heat it for 30 days, after which time further diffusion is drastically slowed and only partly into the stone because a rind develops on the stone which prevents the further diffusing of copper. To get around this, they take the stones out of the oven and tumble them to get that rind off and they repeat the process 2 more times for a total heating time of 90 days.

Hi Chris, Thanks for the post! (For those of you who may not know Chris, he’s the owner of High Desert Gems & Minerals, a geologist who really knows his sunstone. Check out his website at www.highdesertgemsandminerals.com). Well this formula sounds similar to the one I was shown in Tucson, which then sparked a lot of conversation in our blog posts on red andesine. I have passed your version of the “recipe” on to Dr.s Shigley, Rossman, and Emmett. I know they appreciate everyone’s help with this increasingly difficult identification.

I believe this andesine/labradorite is going to turn out to be one of the biggest scandals in modern gemstone history. There have been plenty of red flags for a long time that the andesine/labradorite is treated. For 100 years, the red labradorite (oregon sunstone) from Oregon was the only known place in the world where it occured. Doesnt anyone think its strange that in just a 2 year period, there were suddenly new deposits found in Congo, Tibet, China, Mongolia and in the most war torn, inaccesible place of all ________(fill in blank). Why didnt more of the trade find it strange that there has never been any rough whatsoever from all these supposed deposits. i tried to get even one piece of rough from the "Tibetan mine owner" to do some reseearch on it and I was refused. Not even a non cuttable chip was available. Why are there no matrix specimens, no low grade materials like any real gem mine has. Why has there not been any visits allowed to any of these supposed mines by western geologists who could verify the ocurrence and the geology of them. Why did the gem authorities turn their heads from the problem for so long? I was at a chinese red labradorite/andesine dealer at the GJX show in Tucson. They had table after table full of thousands of cherry red and green andesine/labradorite. I know the mine owner of the yellow labradorite mine in Mexico. Last year, he sold over 30,000 kilos of yellow labradorite to a Chinese company. When I was telling him about all the tables of andesine/labradorite I saw at a chinese dealers booth. He asked me if they had any yellow labradorite. I told him I didnt see any. He was very surprised and then told me that very company was the one that bought all his yellow lab.
I also noticed at this booth that there were some lighter reds as well as orangy reds and swirled watermelon like green and red stones. They were all priced the same price per carat regardless of color, color intensity etc. I've never seen a real gem mine have that kind of price structure. It indicates an attitutde that they all cost the same amount of money to produce rather than taking into account a gemstones intrisic rarity.

WoWzer Chris --- We have linked to you from the Blogg. Well isn't this a fine kettle of fish -- THAT HAS BEEN IN THE SUN (hehe) TO LONG!

Regarding JTV selling Andesine, Robert DeNiro as Sam "Ace" Rothstein:

Listen, if you didn't know you're bein' scammed, you're too dumb (clean version) to keep this job. If you did know, you were in on it. Either way, you're out.

I Think JTV should give a no-questions-asked refund to any one who wants it. It just might keep them from visiting Classactionland.

Mr. Roskin,
I have seen you give kudos to JTV for finding and revealing the supposed source for their "andesine/labradorite" and advising other dealers to do the same. I have read your opinions concerning full disclosure and dealing with only verifiable, reputable mining sources. All of these things are meant to improve the image and trust factor of the gem and jewelry industry. What I have not heard you or anyone else do is hold JTV responsible for their less than sterling sales tactics or the fact that they keep selling this gemstone as rare when Mr. Rose and others keep describing the amount of material that was available at Tucson. JTV also keeps telling their customers that the yellow labradorite coming from Chihuahua Mexico is very rare and has not been seen in the industry for over thirty years until this find discovered approximately 2 years ago, etc. If you have not tuned in lately, please try to catch one of their gemstone shows, in particular one hosted by Dawn. Mr. Roskin, I know you are not the industry watch dog, but if you want to talk about improving the industry's image, perhaps some of the focus should go to the world's largest loose gemstone dealer (JTV's words).

I want to thank Chris Rose and Jeff Graham for being willing to tell those of us who are just everyday consumers of jewelry and gemstones what seems to be the only truth we are getting these days. Mr. Rose, I want you to know someone is listening and I hope I am not the only one. You may be surprised to find that all of this controversy will help your business in the end. I cannot speak for anyone else, but any future red labradorite purchases I make will be from you.

There is natural red andesine or labadorite from Tibet. I did get a couple of pieces of rough from the owners of the Tibet mine last year and they gave me lots of details on production. The production figures were very small for all types of labadorite. In not way could they be the source. I have tried heating (to only aprox 800C) oregon and madagascar material and a friend has tried the same with Mexican to no avail so there has to be other methods used, possibly HTHP and or diffusion. This year 2 larger suppliers admitted to me that they "heat" the material.

Basicly, in the gem trade, there are no secrets. If we can not buy rough and can not locate the mine than it does not exist. I did tell JTV last year that I believed they were being duped but they chose to ignore my warnings.

I also believe that the congo location exists, and i have been told by a congolese friend that he could take me there, however politics and output does not come close to satisfying the quantity on the market today.

If 1 + 1 does not equal 2 which it does not then we have a problem.

By the way ... anyone try to buy large blue zircon rough lately - I am looking for a source - lots of fine blue zircon on the market in good sizes. Where does it come from?? Does 1+1=2???

for anyone that is interested, we have pictures showing yellow labradorite before treatment and then one month after copper diffussion treatment, then 2 months and finally 3 months. We also have a picture of of a flux inclusion in a faceted stone that was sold as natural and said to be from Congo. The flux went into a deep void in the stone and was not completely ground away by the faceter.

h t t p : / / w w w . jewelcutter.com/articles/images/andesine-flux-inclusion.jpg

Why blame the whistle-blower? Why not focus on companies still selling Andesine as "untreated" -- many are! Including HSN! Why is the "myspace" group JTV JUNGKIES out to ruin JTV? They are on the BLOG & will not let any other customers comment without getting harassed. Many customers in JTV FRIENDS have been harassed for appreciating the JTV announcement and still buying Andesine. Does this REALLY mean we can no longer purchase & appreciate this gem? Why is this group harassing other JTV customers as well as the group on FACEBOOK, Jewelry Television Friends? And WHY are they "taking shifts" on the Jewelry Television Blog" so that NO ONE is able to say anything but them? I am even receiving email that is abusive from the group. I'm really not certain how many Jewelry Television customers agree with them on this issue. I just purchased a gorgeous Andesine, it's beautiful & I think it's a cool color, but if I review it, I will pay for it!!!! They will make fun of & demean me on the JTV BLOG & put down a group that supports many small jewelry businesses and artisans. It's getting out of hand.

Sorry, but no one has been harrassed by MySpace group and JTV has an OPEN BLOG, where anyone can post anything. MySpace Group/Junkies only have sought to find out the truth about this gemstone and has said so many, many times. There is a post by one of them this afternoon CLEARLY stating they did NOT want this information about the andesine/labradorite to turn out to be true or to harm JTV. They are former loyal customers who wanted to find out their ole trusted JTV was right all along. Unfortunately, the information doesn't seem to lend itself to that conclusion.

I am re-posting this to the update.

Gary, I don't know if you have seen it yet, but you need to check out the ISG newsletter that just came out today. Big news from Robert James about Andesine Labradorite. The newsletter was mailed to subscribers, and is not on the ISG website. If you don't get this, you can go to the JTV blog dated 4/16/08 and it is posted there. Happy reading!

SNAP SNAP SNAP---Nothing like re=running and old post with the same old stale false statements. JTV blog is open to all and is run by JTV. Dust off your WANGS and Fly Home. Gary the New information comming out is really mind boggling!!!

I agree with Snap, but I think the opposite is true. I don't post to the JTV Blog because of The JTV Friends...maybe that's what Snap meant. Their leader is a real strange bird, and I think it's her daughter that posts weird long things that you can't understand. As a matter of fact they both do. If you want to fear someone I think that's the group to be leary of. have you seen those reviews - talk about Kool-Aid drinkers!

Thank you all for your posts and your interest. Even after reading several posts on the JTV sight as you have suggested, I will still patiently await the findings from Dr. Rossman at Cal Tech, Dr. Shigley at GIA Research Lab, and Dr. Emmett, at Crystal Chemistry. While I appreciate everyone's efforts to uncover the truth about andesine, I am very interested to hear from those three doctors above who have the equipment to measure chemistry, and actually test enhancement theories. We all need a little patience - especially knowing that the enhancement recipe given was a three month process. So please, if you have andesine, wear them and enjoy them. We will certainly post any information on any findings as soon as we have something to report.
And as for posting your comments here, we appreciate your contributions, but please treat everyone with respect. As I have been reminded many times, if you cannot say something nice about someone, it is best not to say anything at all.
Thanks all.

Gary---isn't that the same Foxes that have watched the hen house and helped GIA through numerous SCANDALS. Perhaps the time has come for a more open process that is UNFLAVORED by the God in the Heavens Position of the GIA? What is the old saying that Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. Seems that same wait and see attitude is what enabled this industry to get in the condition that it is in. This is just a humble hobbiest/and revolted consumers opinion after 3 months of research. So in that period of time I could UNCOVER these things---Seems the others having this much time will be able to COVER things! Like there collective sitter oners!

Ahhhh....sunstone, andesine, labradorite...and mystery localities.... I've been in the gem, mining. mineral biz for over 40 years now and this is the first time I've been aware of such contraversey re: locality, treatments etal....and going on for such a long time! This is truly strange in this industry. The good news is that the Oregon Sunstone (labradorite) is totally natural with a wonderful range of colors. I work with Oregon sunstone from the Dust Devil Mine every day and never tire of its unique qualities....and NATURAL colors and copper inclusions. It is a pleasure to work with such a unique and NATURAL gem! Hopefully, in the coming months, the 'other' feldspars and the mystery locations will be figured out and the truth will surface. Bottom line....hooray for OREGON SUNSTONE! The Dust Devil Mine is open for fee dig at this time and there are some awesome RED gems being unearthed.

Hi Lili, Gemology and the identification of gemstone enhancements has become a huge challenge for the desk gemologist. It was early in this decade when the jewelry industry was flooded with incredibly beautiful sapphires, all incorrectly labeled as being only heat treated. It took several laboratories, using extremely sophisticated and very expensive pieces of equipment (AGTA, GIA, CalTech, & Chrystal Chemistry,) in order to figure out just what it was that made these sapphires so vibrantly colorful. They were identified as beryllium diffusion treated. Since then, we realize that we all must wait for those who have the equipment to do all of the testing necessary in order to come to the right conclusion. It's fun for those of us who have some gem equipment and a microscope to talk about what we've found in the andesine we've tested. But to jump to a conclusion prior to hearing from these other labs is currently not the best process. By the way, the three research laboratories currently testing andesine have not to my knowledge ever been involved in or accused of any scandals. So again, have patience. These laboratories do not buy or sell gemstones, and are only interested in finding out the truth.

Gary-Thank You For Your Response. I too hope that there are no vested interests nor conflicts of interest regarding this issue. The Science Should Be Allowed To Prevail over the necessity to buffer the industry from (Loss Of Face)! I have deep concerns over the CHINA Connection in all of this. Also---there is additional information posted as part two in the series (and is stunning) on the ISG YourGemologist Site.

OK, so I just got a pair of orangey/Red trillian cut Andesine/Labradorite on my desk to appraise and from all I've read so far here, I unclear what to call it. The owner tells me it's Tibetian although I'm extremely reluctant to write any kind of origin when I can't prove it. It may be proveable but at this time I'm unclear how. What is this worth high/low 12x12 pair? Retail/wholesale The stone appears to be SI - I1. with growth lines.

Any takers?

From my sources, the final word on the orangey-red Andesine/Labradorite Feldspar is still yet to be determined. I would suggest the following: Country of Origin undeterminable. Color origin unknown. And until the verdict is in, I'm not so sure what if any affect there will be on replacement value. Since you are appraising it today, to replace it today would be values set by the wholesale selling prices seen in Tucson, along with your standard mark-up for your market. The Gem Guide should have current wholesale values for you. One comment on clarity: I have not seen any of this material with a clarity of SI-I1. You mention growth lines, and to me, this could mean uneven color instead of a clarity characteristic.

I have written a new article about the treatment of andesine (andesine-labradorite). I have indisputable photographic proof there is at least some treated labradorite that is being marketed as natural red andesine. I suspect the vast majority of red andesine is treated. The article is posted here:

www.jewelcutter.com/articles/andesine_scam.htm

Even with amount of information that is now public I am sure there are some people who will continue to believe that andesine is all real.

Regards,

Gary Kratochvil
San Antonio, TX

It has now been over 3 months since this article has been published. Any word yet from the "pretty intelligent folk"? Seems andesine must be a harder nut to crack than tanzanite. That coating determination must have broken lab records.

Hi "Just Curious,"
Yes, the andesine question is much more difficult than the tanzanite coating identification. Several issues confuse the identification process: 1.) is there enough copper already in the yellow feldspar to cause color after heating? 2.) What temperatures and for how long does this heating need to take place? 3.) Is there any external copper being introduced and if so, how? 4.) if only a small percentage of the yellow feldspar changes after the enhancement process, do the scientists have rough material that will change after they do their experiments, or were they given material that will not change, even if the enhancement process is performed correctly? 5.) has there been enough discovery at the mine sites in the Congo, Mexico, Tibet, and Mongolia? 6.) if the enhancement process takes three months as was rumored in Tucson, how many times will these guys have to experiemnent before they get the process right? And I'm sure there are more questions than I can think of. So patience is the name of the game. Stay tuned.

It is my understanding that this material has been in the process of testing since May 2006. I understand that these experts have other things to do but I am staying tuned and eagerly await any information.

I am so confused. I have researched this whole subject, and no one agrees on anything. I am aware that this fact is already covered in the blog.

What I want to know is does bright red Labradorite from Oregon (sunstone) hold a lot of value? I mean is that intense red from Oregon considered rare? Does it have the potential to go up in value over time, or is it so plentiful that it's unlikely? I can't find the answer to this question.

Thanks for your thoughts.

The answer to your question is unfortunately, it depends. Red sunstone can be rare. Depending on the quality, including transparency as well as any special characteristics the specimen has, price can range from $100 to nearly a $1000 or more per carat.

High quality larger pieces currently have strong market potential. These pieces are sought by the better known American cutters and transformed in pieces of art. Whether price will increase or decrease is dependant on many factors in play in the market. If the market is faced with new deposits that increase supply or fashion trends change leading to decline in consumer desire, prices can drop. If supply is enough to generate interest but not enough to saturate the market, prices tend to climb. It is difficult to know the price performance of any given stone from a long term forward looking perspective. (I know plenty of people that purchased homes a few years ago that aren't worth those prices today.)

The number one reason to buy any gem is that you like it!

Did anyone else see a possible connection with this! I wonder if JTV has close affiliation with this china company? The host have boasted that they are the original finders of the YELLOW LABRADORITE IN MEXICO, RIGHT? THEY WERE LOOKING FOR FIRE OPAL. REMEMBER THOSE COMMENTS? Here is the comment I was refering to: by Chris Rose. (I was at a chinese red labradorite/andesine dealer at the GJX show in Tucson. They had table after table full of thousands of cherry red and green andesine/labradorite. I know the mine owner of the yellow labradorite mine in Mexico. Last year, he sold over 30,000 kilos of yellow labradorite to a Chinese company. When I was telling him about all the tables of andesine/labradorite I saw at a chinese dealers booth. He asked me if they had any yellow labradorite. I told him I didnt see any. He was very surprised and then told me that very company was the one that bought all his yellow lab.) THE 64,000 QUESTION IS WHEN DID JTV REALLY KNOW OF THE TREATMENTS? DO THEY HAVE THEIR HANDS MORE DIRTY THAN ANYONE EVER EXPECTED?

I bought many andesines from JTV past 3 years. When I contacted JTV and expressed my concern about Andesine news, they are willing to refund the returned items. Their customer service is OUTSTANDING! I am impressed.

I agree!!!! JTV has refunded my money for ALL Andesine items I purchased (several thousands of dollars). They even sent postage paid stickers to use!!! Their customer care representatives were cordial, pleasant and as helpful as one could hope for. I have NO complaints and will continue to be a loyal customer to a company who stands behind their product in such stellar fashion. Their lay offs were quite unfortunate, but the economy in this country is to blame, NOT ANDESINE.

Well, if I am not mistaken, there is no doubt now as to the treatment status of Andesine. Having read several press releases there is no doubt in my mind anyway. And still no word yet from the "pretty intelligent folk"? I can't help but wonder why the holdup.

Hi Just Curious, Well, what an interesting week it has been. We have read International School of Gemology Robert James' latest report, and Colored Stone Magazine David Federman's report on Robert James' report. We have looked at the comments referenced in the CS Magazine report made by Ted Themelis in Bangkok, Dr. Lore Kiefert at the AGTA Gem Testing Center in New York, and Dr. Emmanuel Fritsch from the Institut des Matériaux in Nantes, France, all of whom agree that something is strange with andesine. Themelis has spoken numerous times about new enhancement techniques used in Thailand which could possibly be involved... Kiefert notes that James' images show something that they have not yet seen in the lab... and Fritsch comments that their testing results show something unnatural. I sure do wish that someone would actually confirm Robert James' report of what I will call "external diffusion." Dr. Rossman at Cal Tech says that the proving of what ever has taken place has not yet been resolved... even after reading James' reports and after months of studying samples. When Beryllium diffused sapphire entered this country, we knew that the sapphires had been enhanced, but the actual process itself took a long time to be determined. And then once determined, it took even longer for the labs to figure out a way to identify them when stones came into the lab for identification. As secret as enhancement recipes are, I am not surprised that it is taking what seems to us like forever to get confirmation of enhancement. This one stone's enhancement may very well be the straw that finally causes the gem labs to throw up their hands in frustration and claim, as many have already stated before, that gems are either considered "messed around with," unless proven "natural," instead of innocent until proven guilty.

You know, I still like my red and green andesine- Does anyone know if they arre worth what i actually paid for them (between $40-100 carat)If they are, i'd like to keep them- if they are simply pretty colored glass "gems" them I guess they should go back...

According to the FTC, a gemstone is natural as long as it is not man-made or synthetic. So by their standards these enhanced gems are natural. If going by the AGTA standards a gemstone is called “

{cont} “N” or natural only if it is not enhanced or not currently known to be enhanced. (I hope I got that right.)
A gemstone report, by any lab will have a disclaimer, stating that the report is an educated opinion so they are not liable if the information is not exactly correct. So even if this treatment is confirmed by the powers that be, what recourse does the consumer have? Who is going to stop the “cheaters” who are looking for new ways to enhance gems and intentionally not disclose the treatment to buyers who will pass the gem along with the disinformation. I only see this problem getting worse, as no one feels it is their responsibility.

SELLER BEWARE!

According to FTC Regs, the SELLER is legally responsible to compensate the BUYER for any treated gemstone that was not properly disclosed as to that treatment, at the time of sale. The argument by the SELLER that he/she had a lab report/Cert or didn't know ABOUT THE TREATMENT does not relieve that responsibility.

SELLER BEWARE!

According to FTC Regs, the SELLER is legally responsible to compensate the BUYER for any treated gemstone that was not properly disclosed as to that treatment, at the time of sale. The argument by the SELLER that he/she had a lab report/Cert or didn't know ABOUT THE TREATMENT does not relieve that responsibility.

I posted this the other day on GemBusters C.H.A.R.M. and it seems relevant here as well:
I am kind of simple ----- or rather simplistic ---- seems like a good many lapped the cream off the top of the container (benefits of the industry) and left the sour milk for someone else to clean up or dispose of (the issues/scandals ) but way to many orgs./groups seemed to point the finger of responsibility anywhere but in their own direction. Time for the all (from end purchaser all the way back to ore/stone finder) to form a circle and point to the right and eventually it comes around full circle for EVERYONE to pitch in and clean it all up. IMHO.

I couldn't be more confused at this point. I purchased red/green andesine labradorite from jtv. After reading all this, I only have 4 pieces left to return. I was trying to purchase gems that may someday have greater value, something to pass down to my kids. I'm not rich and don't have extra cash to throw out the window. Thankfully they are not giving me a hard time about returning it but I still don't like being taken advantage of. HOWEVER, what about the yellow labradorite. I have Cheryl on tape calling it yellow andesine labradorite. She said even though they have labradorite posted, it has the same chemical make-up as andesine/labradorite and is yellow andesine labradorite. Is jtv allowing it to be returned as well? Do I keep this? I have quite a bit of yellow, do I keep it? Is it andesine/labradorite like Cheryl said? I rechecked my tape and she specifically states more than once that the yellow labradorite is andesine/labradorite. Any suggestions?

Hi Confused, The answers to these questions can sound confusing, and so you are not alone. Andesine belongs to the Feldspar Group, which includes: Albite, Andesine, Anorthite, Anorthoclase, Banalsite, Buddingtonite, Bytownite, Celsian, Dmisteinbergite, Hyalophane, Labradorite, Microcline, Oligoclase, Orthoclase, Paracelsian, Plagioclase, Reedmergnerite, Sanidine, Slawsonite, Stronalsite, and Svyatoslavite. You of course, see Labradorite in here as well as Andesine. They are very similar in chemistry and are not easy to seperate. And you can have gems that are actually several minerals that have grown together. Each stone is an individual, and should be identified. But whether Andesine or Labradorite, or a combination of both, it can still be a very pretty gemstone. However, if you are dissatisfied with your purchase, you can always contact the company and let them know you wish to return your purchase.

I have watched JTV for years. I purchased alot of the red and green labradorite from them. Because of their comments about the labradorite andesine being the next paraiba tourmaline, I purchased red and green labradorite from other people as investments. I have spent thousands of dollars in investment money. The main thing that I am unhappy with JTV is that they did not check out the stone before they sold it on JTV. They are the largest seller of stones, so they say. If so, why did they not check it out before they sold the andesine labradorite. I am torn because I like JTV but now I am not sure I can trust them. Have they checked out all the other stones they sell to make sure they are natural or treated in any way? I will need to go through my jewelry and stones and see about returning the labradorite andesine. Thank you all so much for your comments about the labradorite andesine.

I just wanted to Say I have been an unsatisied Customer of JTV for 11 years now.I hate it when I buy what I thought was A1 Top Quality Stones (AS they Show on TV)but when I get them they look like they have been ran over buy the MAC truck they were delivered in.But I have some very Great ones that I would never part with at all. I even bought 45 ct. Ametrine on the show it was gorgous. But when I recieved it, it was no where close to the carat weight it should have been. The stone was about 25 carats and the Split was not 50/50 more like 80/20 but the Colors were Rich and Dark.I did have to send it back for Refund and My Heart was broken.I never found another one that big since. I am also torn I love JTV.But I send way to much back then I keep......What a Shame!

I just wanted to Say I have been an unsatisied Customer of JTV for 11 years now.I hate it when I buy what I thought was A1 Top Quality Stones (AS they Show on TV)but when I get them they look like they have been ran over buy the MAC truck they were delivered in.But I have some very Great ones that I would never part with at all. I even bought 45 ct. Ametrine on the show it was gorgous. But when I recieved it, it was no where close to the carat weight it should have been. The stone was about 25 carats and the Split was not 50/50 more like 80/20 but the Colors were Rich and Dark.I did have to send it back for Refund and My Heart was broken.I never found another one that big since. I am also torn I love JTV.But I send way to much back then I keep......What a Shame!

GemGeek- Seems you want something for nothing.

Investor- Apparently JTV actually had tested many stones at labs. They came back natural. It was only when JTV themselves found out about the heating that they made the announcement. Since then they have been demonized by platform standing feel gooders.

Just a clarification for those of you reading about andesine lab reports. The gemological laboratories produce "gem identification reports" on many gem materials. These are the laboratory's "opinions" of what the gems may be, and how they may be treated. Two very important notes: First - The laboratory DOES identify andesine as a "natural gem material," but as for any treatment, the lab will only state "no evidence of enhancement/treatment." This is unfortunately taken by many people to mean "no treatment, natural color," which of course is not the case. It just says that the labs do not see anything to suggest that the stone has been treated. Second - The use of the words "treatment" and "enhancement" are used by many to mean the same thing, when in truth, the treatment is what is done to the stone to attempt to improve the color, the clarity, or the stability of the gem material. Enhancement is the improvement of these things. So a gem may be heat "treated," but described as color "enhanced." I hope this helps.

JTV only announced that the stones were heated, and it is now fairly certain that a lot more than that happened with this material. It is copper diffused. Has JTV ever made that announcement? No. Have you (or anyone else) actually seen any of the reports of stones JTV allegedly had tested? No. Have they ever gone back on the air and told people that they were duped, and offered refunds to all? No. Has any other network selling this frankenstone made any announcements? No. Have the labs that issued reports for this material ever come out and said they were mistaken? No. Are people still selling this frankenstone to unsuspecting customers as natural, or in an effort to continue selling it simply stopped saying it was natural and untreated and allowed customers to believe (by this omission) that nothing had changed? You bet. It's time for the industry to come clean. Anyone can make a mistake, it's how you own up to it that matters. Many in the industry still treat it as their dirty little secret, and that's why they can't be trusted and why people continue to make a stink.

As of today this is the first time I have seen Andesine again for sale on Jewelry Television. It is titled Andesine/Labradorite and the description says it is "color enhanced/diffused". Prices are above what they were previously selling for.

Gary Roskin, I'd like to thank you for helping me decide on the andesine labradorite I purchased from JTV. I purchased mixed facets from them in the past containing both green &

red andesine labradorite so I decided to try and return the individual stones I purchased. To my surprise, JTV's cust. serv. dept. with no questions asked took all my information on each stone and with a week I had returned prepaid postage for UPS. I received a full refund including my initial shipping from when I purchased the gems. I can't argue with that! Eventhough Cheryl called the yellow labradorite andesine labradorite, they were not accepting these back other than their normal return policy which had long expired. I have those in my mixed facets as well, so if an issue comes up, I'll try to return my single stone, hopefully again with no problems. I have returned more than I have kept from JTV and I know you get what you pay for. However for most of us I think JTV is kind of like the lotto; most of us play, knowing we won't win (in this case probably won't get gem quality stones), but are forever hopeful that one day we will. I know that I would never be able to pay the high prices from a gem dealer (If I knew how to find one and if they would even give me the time of day) and JTV knows that is true of the majority of us. This is how they stay in business. Most of us want something to hand down to our kids, can't afford real world prices and thus JTV makes a mint off of us wishful fools, just trying to give something nice to ourselves or our family.

I have checked Jewelry Television's inventory of Andesine-Labradorite for sale and it has gone up from 24 SKUs to 98 SKUs in a few days. They are definitely selling in large scale again and including 'orange red' along with 'cherry red' as desirable. By example prices for 11mmx9mm, 2.25ct to 3.0ct are going for $300 to $350. They have green ,too. It looks like this 'Frankenstone' has come back to life.

Boy, I more confused than ever! I was in the process of sending back my red and green andesine to JTV but now I'm not sure. My red stones are that nice cherry color and I do like them but are the they nothing more that a man made gem?

Boy, I more confused than ever! I was in the process of sending back my red and green andesine to JTV but now I'm not sure. My red stones are that nice cherry color and I do like them but are the they nothing more that a man made gem?

The red and green andesine being sold today is a natural gemstone, found in China (just where in China we are not sure - yet). Its original color was most likely a pale yellow, and through heat and quite possibly the addition of elemental copper, the color has changed from that pale yellow to a nice saturated orangey-red, or green. This color treatment is called "diffusion." So while the gemstone is not man-made, the color most likely is. We will be reporting on the latest progress in the identification of possible color enhancements in just a few days.

So are the stones worth what they are being sold for? How does one find the actual price per carat for these stone?
Thank you for your assistance.

FWIW --- IMHO ---- just consider the stone a heavily treated and manipulated stone. What are heavily treated stones worth? Yes it is pretty --- but keep this in mind when you try and judge its value. *** Proud Member of GemBusters***

I received an e-mail from JTV regarding a proposed settlement and settlement hearing. They are supposed to send me a claim form and I can return my gemstones for a full refund. Haven't had the claim form yet but unsure whether or not to return them. Do I wait till the settlement goes through or send them now? Very confused about all this. I bought them as an investment and now I'm not sure if they are worth it.

If you send them back are they worth more or less than I bought them for. I know they will give me a full refund on what I paid for them but what if they are worth more now. Would I get the difference?

I received an e-mail from JTV regarding a proposed settlement and settlement hearing. They are supposed to send me a claim form and I can return my gemstones for a full refund. Haven't had the claim form yet but unsure whether or not to return them. Do I wait till the settlement goes through or send them now? Very confused about all this. I bought them as an investment and now I'm not sure if they are worth it.

If you send them back are they worth more or less than I bought them for. I know they will give me a full refund on what I paid for them but what if they are worth more now. Would I get the difference?

As of today, JTV has posted for sale 546 SKUs of Andesine-Labradorite . Each SKU is a category with the same price and a quantity of equivalent gemstones for sale. It would appear that JTV is requalifying and now correctly designating returned gems as "color enhanced/diffused" and reselling them. Many of the prices are higher than they originally sold for. Many are the same price. There is an abundance of green and cherry red, orange-red, and orange in all sizes. This is at least a partial affirmation that Andesine is still a marketable gem, at least in JTVs opinion.

To anyone that has concerns on returning their andesine/labradorite,

Now it doesn't make sense that there is a cap on the returns for the settlement. If the returns reach 1 million or something like that. the people loose more than what they think. JTV still is able to sell the andesine that everyone returns and we loose. How is this fair. They are in a win/win situation. As far as I can see they sold over a million dollars worth of andesine and they know that it will reach the amount that was in the settlement that they can give a lesser value than everyone hopes for. I looked at the identification certifications and it does not state that the stones are natural and untreated.

Where did they get this observation to say that they had proof of natural and untreated. People need to take a closer look at the cert's. also, the companies that did the cert's state that they are not liable for any lawsuits to them for their misrepresentation of the gemstones. How clever. I can't believe that they are selling the stones before they have reached a settlement agreement. They will be making double. first when they sold the gemstones originally and then the ones that are returned they will sell them for more than what they sold them for originally. How are they hurting from this. What a crock of bull.

Does anyone else smell something fishy...also the court system that resides over the Proceedings is located in the state that the JTV is LOCATED. Tennessee makes tax dollars from JTV for having their company in their state. CONFLICT OF INTEREST. The proceeding should have been held in a state that does not have a stake in the company's tax revenues that JTV has to pay yearly. On the other hand if you do not have the money to pursue this yourself you will receive nothing. they have large pockets and the lawsuit will drag on until the consumer runs out of money to fight the big bad wolf...

It is like you are stuck doing exactly what JTV wants you to do. Give back the stones so they can sell them again...They are hoping that it will blow over and they will go back to selling the stone because RED STONES ARE SCARCE DUE TO THE IMPORT BAN ON BURMA GOODS. AND THEY KNOW THAT EVERYONE LOVES RED STONES. THEY ARE NOT PLAYING FAIR. THEY JUST THINK THAT THE CUSTOMERS ARE JUST FOOLS AND MOST OF THEM ARE. THEY ARE COUNTING ON IT. THEY SAY THAT THEY ARE WANTING TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC ABOUT GEMSTONES...HOW ABOUT THE WAY THEY ARE SELLING THE TOOLS. GETTING A REFRACTOMETER DOES NOT IDENTIFY A GEMSTONE JUST BY LOOKING AT IT AND SEENING THE NUMBER IT SHOWS. THEIR ARE ALOT OF FACTORS INVOLVED...BIFRENGENCE ETC...DO THEY EVEN TELL THEM THAT....IF YOU COULD JUST PICK UP AN INSTRUMENT AND IDENTIFY A STONE THEIR WOULD NOT BE A NEED FOR EDUCATION IN GEMOLOGY. HEY JUST BUY THE BOOK AND YOU ARE AN EXPERT......GEM ID MADE EASY......EASY TO BE A FOOL.....

Alice Grim seems confused. JTV offered to take back all Andesine months before any class action suits were filed or were over. The settlement of the class action suits was an agreement to take back up to 1 million dollars worth of Andesine and JTV started selling Andesine again immediately, properly labelled. So as an owner of Andesine you can keep it. The fact that JTV is now selling it again for the same or higher price than before should give you confidence in the value of the stone. Or you can turn it in and get your money back.
Further, if you remember, for more than a year JTV did not know where Andesine came from. When they did find the source, they found that it was heated. Up to that time they had been told it was natural and they had no way to verify that and had sent samples out to labs.

Net out - either you believe the stone still has value (you can't complain if JTV can sell it at the same price) or you don't. What is there about not playing fair if it has the same value in your hands as it does in their hands?

Has anybody heard the court csae went on this week? I haven't heard a peep about it yet.

OMgosh....I bought red andesine from JTV a couple of years ago. I don't remember where they said it was from but I do know they said it was very rare. I also purchased some green labradorite. Is there anything to worry about that as well? Now, what can I do about it? I am not a gemologist or anything, just someone who likes gemstone jewelry and the like. Someone please let me know what to do. I am pretty sure my andesine did not come from the USA!

OMgosh....I bought red andesine from JTV a couple of years ago. I don't remember where they said it was from but I do know they said it was very rare. I also purchased some green labradorite. Is there anything to worry about that as well? Now, what can I do about it? I am not a gemologist or anything, just someone who likes gemstone jewelry and the like. Someone please let me know what to do. I am pretty sure my andesine did not come from the USA!

I have to agree with alot of what Alice Grim commented on. I was not aware of any JTV's offers of take backs or the class action until last week. The settlement options do not look good, you'll lose money on your purchase or have to spend more money with JTV to get 'refunded'. The key is: are these stones worth anything? And that depends on the treatment and what the 'natural stone' was before the treatment. I.e. heat treatment is one thing, copper diffusion with the possible yellow feldspar found in Mexico is other. That means these stones have almost no value (from what I've read so far on the web). In fact, these 'rare' stones sold in the mass quantities that they were are now being coined 'TV Andesine'. Good Luck to all but the winners here seemed to be JTV in this case.

The comment that JTV is selling andesine for the same or higher price should give you confidence in the value of the stone is not true. JTV will take a big loss in their books if they cannot resell it. They already had to lay off over 700 hundred employees over that last eight months because of the down turn in business. I'm sure there were several conversations with their lawyers on the phrasing of the 'treatment' of the stones before they got the green light to turn around and resell it. And if they sold the stones way below the original costs it would send the message that the stones have no value. So as long as JTV is covering themselves as to the wording, they will set the price for whatever the market is willing to bear - what you are willing to pay.

ANGRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY NOT REFUNDING ON YELLOW LABRADORITE?

If the red and green andesine start out from the yellow labradorite, then that means that the yellow is much much more abundant than JTV has said. That would mean that all of it started from the yellow, and it is very plentiful. I had bought up at least 65 carats, or more of the yellow, because they stated it's rareness.

They refuse to refund me for the yellow, and that is just not right, since they were always talking about how rare it was, and Cheryl was always saying to buy it up. They should refund us on the yellow labradorite as well.

What do others think?

ur screwed no matter how you look at it. JTV makes out like bonkers & then some. so, folks it looks like they WIN,WIN,WIN no matter how the beans are spilled

I agree with you that jtv looks like a big winner again, saw them on tv, i believe it was a may 30 airing, showing the red and green andesine being sold as rare once again. the infamous blond jtv sales girl, the one who always gulps looking for words when a lie is being told, stating how valuable they were and if you buy one, you would get a second red andesine-labradorite free. how you needed to jump on this deal asap! what a crock of bull. these folks never quit with the lies and deceitful ploys. Folks, i doubt anyone will actually get their money back and i'm sure you will get back only a fraction what you invested. i'm holding my breath, fingers still crossed because i too was one of those suckers who bought into their rap.what a shame these people operate a business. scam!